tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30436844.post6337130906153546016..comments2024-03-24T09:31:01.300+00:00Comments on Shiny Ginger Thoughts: UndividedDaniel Blanchehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15525641726889468099noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30436844.post-77236706649063049322018-07-30T19:35:55.560+01:002018-07-30T19:35:55.560+01:00We have recently covered this topic (as part of a ...We have recently covered this topic (as part of a wider series)<br /><br />here is a link to a YouTube clip which I found very humbling.<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCpI2vGOiRs<br /><br />(I'm not sure why I can't comment with my actual name Claire Thompson-Phiri!)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00364966155819813209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30436844.post-90835055911101179902018-07-06T08:59:12.287+01:002018-07-06T08:59:12.287+01:00Thanks Liam. Interesting to compare our early exp...Thanks Liam. Interesting to compare our early experiences. My own Reformed Baptist upbringing laid a heavy stress on systematic theology, which meant that in a different way I was also enabled to incorporate the stories of God's wrath into a whole picture of his holy character. I don't remember ever really finding them problematic. On the other hand, far from the 'evangelical obsession with sexual morality', I don't recall sex ever really being mentioned. That was not helpful, and left us ill-equipped.<br /><br />My sense is that we need urgently to recover the link between the gospel and Christian ethics. If we can't show that our sexual ethic flows from the gospel itself, what else can it be but self-righteous and powerless moralism? (But on the other hand, if our gospel doesn't imply any sort of sexual ethic, it seems highly likely we are preaching cheap grace).Daniel Blanchehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15525641726889468099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30436844.post-2488220534505095002018-07-05T11:08:33.974+01:002018-07-05T11:08:33.974+01:00I have now finished reading the book, and broadly ...I have now finished reading the book, and broadly agree with a lot of what you have written. I have a few observations.<br /><br />I was left feeling grateful that I was brought up as a catholic Anglican, and not as an evangelical; which sounds like an odd thing for an evangelical to say. As a child I heard all the difficult bits of the Bible read, but did so in the context of the Eucharist, so there was a hermeneutical context for the ‘harsh bits’, hearing them after confession and absolution and before receiving Christ in holy communion. They were a bracing part of the story, but made a bit more sense in the context of the bigger story. All of this meant when I came across evangelical young people who found the harsh bits of the Bible tricky, I thought they were not seeing the wood for the trees.<br /><br />Being a catholic Anglican meant I had been surrounded by extraverted gay men, many of them ordained, and many of them (at least on paper) ethically conservative. The evangelical obsession with sexual morality, punctutating almost every sermon, felt a bit weird, even though I broadly agreed with their stance. When I began to understand my own sexual feelings, the evangelical certainty seemed more appealing, but at least I knew it wasn’t the whole story.<br /><br />It isn’t just in Vicky Beeching’s book that justification by grace through faith seems to have been forgotten. Evangelical churches often seem to do a line in moralism that would make Roman Catholics wince. Whatever happened to the gospel?<br /><br />So I am left unsurprised that Vicky has sought refuge in more liberal circles. Evangelicalism wasn’t cutting the mustard, and the problem, in a sense, is that evangelicals are not evangelical enough. I suspect were Barth able to comment today, he would pronounce a plague on both houses. I shall pronounce a plague on neither, but hope Vicky realises that you can be conservative, Christian, and gay. I am agnostic on the subject of whether departed saints pray, but perhaps I can piously hope that Michael Vasey is praying for Vicky and for all of us.Liam Beadlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08042044098055326555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30436844.post-19259141998994754402018-07-03T09:26:39.540+01:002018-07-03T09:26:39.540+01:00I think that barring divine intervention this is a...I think that barring divine intervention this is almost certainly going to happen. The theological resources just aren't there to resist the flow of the culture. It might lead to greater clarity in the long run, or it might not. at the very least, lots of people are going to have to decide whether this is an issue which is definitive of evangelicalism in the future, and that's going to be tough.Daniel Blanchehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15525641726889468099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30436844.post-58704803075848039682018-07-02T07:21:48.748+01:002018-07-02T07:21:48.748+01:00Good reflections. I wouldn't be surprised if t...Good reflections. I wouldn't be surprised if the strata of the church Beeching comes from (charismatic/moderate evangelical/mainline-connected)follows suit on accepting such practices over the next decade or so. There are a number of covertly subversive voices working from within. Given the importance placed on hearing subjective words from God and the rejection of other scriptural passages (often without any real thought, as your more sarcastic post points out), it's not too hard to see how it can happen.Ben Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13320578490724889835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30436844.post-20713192187548982362018-06-28T15:38:03.236+01:002018-06-28T15:38:03.236+01:00Thanks Tanya. I hope its not dismissive; at least,...Thanks Tanya. I hope its not dismissive; at least, it isn't in intention It is, I guess, personal, but that's inevitable when responding to such a personal book... Obviously you have more information than I do - I'm just working from the book. And I guess what I noticed in the book was a sense that if I'm good, God will accept me but if I'm broken or even guilty he probably won't. And of course that's all linked up to the shame stuff... Of course we are all on this treadmill of legalism to a certain extent: it's natural. But I don't find much grace in the book, much reflection on God loving broken and sinful people. That's all, and I found it sad Daniel Blanchehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15525641726889468099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30436844.post-33177913287215411622018-06-28T15:18:43.729+01:002018-06-28T15:18:43.729+01:00I really appreciate your clarity of thought Daniel...I really appreciate your clarity of thought Daniel.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03626283299697020378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30436844.post-75529981012932530102018-06-28T15:18:03.527+01:002018-06-28T15:18:03.527+01:00Hi Dan - I appreciate the way you’ve really though...Hi Dan - I appreciate the way you’ve really thought through Vicky’s experience and answer this with a pastoral heart and respect even as you disagree with her theology. <br /><br />This, though, sounded to me a bit personal and harsh- “The saddest thing for me throughout this memoir is that I'm not convinced Vicky Beeching has ever really understood, or at least appropriated, God's grace.” It sounds very dismissive of her faith, which I know to be real. The thing is, I also struggle with perfectionism, and it’s the default which I always fight. I’m pretty sure vicky would say that too, that she fights it. I’m not sure righteousness is the same as self-acceptance, nor that Vicky would say that. I haven’t had Vicky’s experiences and my faith looks different to hers, but I do know the pressure of being on the outskirts of the church through chronic illness, and the outskirts of ministry because of being female. I know that pressure and desire to be theologically right - and I’m not LGBT. There’s a sense sometimes of having to fight to be heard and taken seriously in church (not so much now for me but at times in certain circles). Anyway, I wanted to say I recognise myself in your description of Vicky at the end, and that it felt a bit harsh on me, let alone her! :-) But I’m really glad that you have read this with an eye on how to pastor people better - I agree with you that people, especially pastors, with a traditional view of sexuality ought to read this book because it is an increasingly common story, and needs to be heard, particularly on the issues of shame. Tanyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14627463964364065829noreply@blogger.com