tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30436844.post5499297520124653651..comments2024-03-24T09:31:01.300+00:00Comments on Shiny Ginger Thoughts: ReferendumbDaniel Blanchehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15525641726889468099noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30436844.post-64613618391169928722016-06-21T17:42:07.686+01:002016-06-21T17:42:07.686+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Ben Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13320578490724889835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30436844.post-61853104256428036452016-06-14T12:04:03.473+01:002016-06-14T12:04:03.473+01:00Hi Ben, apologies for slow reply, but I wanted to ...Hi Ben, apologies for slow reply, but I wanted to read this properly, partly because on a first reading I found your comments a bit disturbing. I'm afraid my reaction hasn't improved on a more leisurely reading!<br /><br />I think my response in brief would be: whilst there certainly is something of the nihilism you discuss in modern liberalism, the roots of liberal thinking are in Christianity - compare John Owen's writing on religious toleration with John Locke on political toleration to see the parallels. The Christian liberal position is founded on two insights, firstly that only God is Lord of the conscience, and second that the kingdom of God is not, and need not be, represented by the present political order. Obviously that only makes sense on protestant soil, and would be particularly abhorrent to the caeasaropapist tendencies of the east - but I'm okay with that!<br /><br />I also think it's helpful to think of freedom in two different ways (a la Berlin). 'True freedom' does come only from following Christ, but it is impossible for any state or human institution to impose or create this freedom. Therefore, the state should opt for the limited freedom of acknowledging each person's autonomy (from the state, not absolutely). Far from contradicting each other, the two freedoms reinforce each other: knowing that only the Son can truly set us free, we Christians should not try to impose our (true!) values on the world, or tolerate the absolute imposition of particular (British?) values on others; knowing that the Son does set us free, we should be glad that the limited freedom from the state gives us space to proclaim and live his kingdom.<br /><br />What this does mean is that the state can't hold together a society - it can't create or enforce the necessary shared value system. That's why we're in a mess - it's the general death of a culture, which has exposed a good political and economic system to chaos because the values that underpinned it have collapsed. I don't think that's the fault of liberalism; if anything, it's the fault of the church...Daniel Blanchehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15525641726889468099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30436844.post-26192210124581159412016-06-10T13:36:21.299+01:002016-06-10T13:36:21.299+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Ben Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13320578490724889835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30436844.post-79763769040400469552016-06-09T10:13:28.146+01:002016-06-09T10:13:28.146+01:00Yes, the bad fortune telling has been particularly...Yes, the bad fortune telling has been particularly unfortunate on both sides - along with some statistics and figures on both sides which the people deploying them must know to be untrue or at least highly questionable. Such is political life in modern Britain, and I suspect to a greater or lesser extent always and everywhere.<br /><br />I get where you're coming from, and I have some sympathy for both your main points (about good intentions, and about solidarity). For me, they don't overcome the negatives, but I can understand the attraction.Daniel Blanchehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15525641726889468099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30436844.post-44954150679826813562016-06-09T10:10:23.790+01:002016-06-09T10:10:23.790+01:00I think a good Christian case could be built for a...I think a good Christian case could be built for a version of liberal democracy that embraces a principled pluralism, personally. What other system would work if you have a society that is itself pluralist and doesn't share a story or a set of values?<br /><br />One of the things that worries me about both the EU and our own current gov't is that they seem to want to move away from liberalism towards saying 'everyone must accept our story and values' - which is something we obviously can't do.Daniel Blanchehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15525641726889468099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30436844.post-25548446488597841862016-06-07T13:34:50.254+01:002016-06-07T13:34:50.254+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Ben Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13320578490724889835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30436844.post-5136716821392864942016-06-07T11:12:00.401+01:002016-06-07T11:12:00.401+01:00But not, I suspect, reflective of your own leaning...But not, I suspect, reflective of your own leanings..!Daniel Blanchehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15525641726889468099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30436844.post-15150679884296900342016-06-07T11:10:32.182+01:002016-06-07T11:10:32.182+01:00A great relief indeed - the whole business would b...A great relief indeed - the whole business would be frankly terrifying if that were not the case!Daniel Blanchehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15525641726889468099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30436844.post-48129173901059317632016-06-07T10:38:16.503+01:002016-06-07T10:38:16.503+01:00ExcellentExcellentRoberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03626283299697020378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30436844.post-68862988590466606492016-06-07T09:48:46.681+01:002016-06-07T09:48:46.681+01:00Thanks for this Daniel, really great to have this ...Thanks for this Daniel, really great to have this call to remember to maintain some humility about the whole thing, and to assume and acknowledge we have our own prejudices. What a relief that none of this nor any choices we make will scupper God's plan!Lizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13247085085804519984noreply@blogger.com